The Batcast serves a unique place in the market as the only podcast dedicated to baseball and softball equiptment. We cover information from some of the best manufacturers in the industry and learn from their top level employees. You can find the Batcast on all major podcast providers including Stitcher and Itunes.
Published: May 30, 2017 | Last modified: December 20, 2017
On the 9th episode of the BatCast we spend some quality time with Ryder Dupuis, bat product manager for Marucci Sports. We talk CAT 7, Hex Connect and a host of Marucci insights otherwise unknown to the podcast and internet space.
Brian: Max, Welcome to the podcast, You guys sell a lot of Marucci Bats?
Max: They are coming to a complete manufacturer. They now do very well in every category. The CAT 7 is a great bat.
Brian: 4 or 5 years ago people came to the site to read about Easton or DeMarini and few people came to read about Marucci. But, today, they are number two on our site. Behind Easton. DeMarini is super close. But they are in the top echelon of bat manufacturers in composite and metal. 4 or 5 years ago no one would put them on the top, but today they are.
Max: The 5-squared, I remember, when it was deemed illegal. People started to take note.
Brian: It is funny like that. I don’t think people are doing this on purpose. But the ultimate consumer reaction to a bat that gets banned, people are attracted to it. That CAT7 is in style now. Stiff feel, nice ping. It has a bunch of great sizes, huge sweet spot, great pop, great user feedback. The CAT 7 is our #1 selling bat this year. Will be interesting to see.
Max: The only thing missing is them having college teams use the CAT 7.
Brian: The #8 drop 8 option is the CAT 7. The MAKO Beast is a good choice there too. But that feels more like the ZEN. In terms of performance.
Max: We did not order enough of the drop 8 Marucci CAT 7. People ask me about that bat all the time when they find out their Zen went illegal.
Brian: Yeah, I guess most of the industry was not planning on a huge section of the drop 8 market to dissapear because it was deemed illegal.
Max: The drop 8 917 or Beast are pretty much the options. Or man up and swing a drop 5 zen.
Brian: Ryder, Give us your background, what you do, how it is you do with Marucci.
Ryder: I started at Marucci 7 years ago. From Louisiana. Marucci is Baton Rouge. When it was 10 to 15 employees. They were wood bat only then. I kept on here. We went from wood to BBCOR in 2011 and 2012. Since then we have grown dramatically in the baseball market. Me, I helped around the wood shop. Then was in customer service, then warranty, then managed some sales reps. Then when we got in other bat lines we started building up a test lab here. As we got deeper and sales started to grow and add some bat categories. I got away from the sales reps things, got into the lab, and learned everything I could. Tested, field testing, softball, baseball, everything. Then the product development opened up about two years ago. And now here I am. I am a Marucci loyalists. We now do everything. Kept the same passion.
Brian: Marucci is owned by MLB players. How true is that? What is the Marucci story?
Ryder: I’ll try and give the abbreviated version. Marucci was started by two Kurt Ainsworth and Joe Lawrence and Jack Marucci—who was the head athletic trainer at LSU. Kurt played in the league for a while. Was back getting some rehab. Jack was doing his rehab. Joe was a two time Gatorade player of the year. Went to Toronto. They were all rehabbing together. Started making bats in a shed. He bought a couple wood bats in his back yard. His son was young. Could not find youth wood bats anywhere. He would play around and cut some nice stuff too for big league bats. Some of these guys actually like the bats. They both knew the MLB chapter in their life was over. But they got it started in the back yard shed and it grew to what it is today. The actual shed is still there. It was literally a word of mouth growth. Players were getting these bats and thought they were awesome. First MLB bats used in games were illegal because Marucci was not a certified MLB vendor. We stuck with wood until 2004. And then in 2011 we started getting in other categories. Buys like Pujols, Vernon Wells, actually bought into the company early on. That started the story of a player owned company because it is true. Marucci bought its own wood supply up in PA from the Amish country. We own our wood to the Forrest down to when it ships to a clubhouse. So, 2011, 2012 we started at the same time as the BBCOR space. So, we designed a bat for that test. But a lot of companies were at a disadvantage. They were trying to retrofit old bats with the new standard. But since we did not have anything we could develop new bats from these old tests. Essentially since then we started getting into more bat lines and more bat markets. And, along the way, we have not lost our edge on the MLB market either. Just about anyone you see on our marketing are owners in our company. It is our culture. A lot of the guys that work here come from baseball backgrounds. Baseball coaches, minor players. We are a baseball company through and through. We are still a privately held company and not held to some other standard.
Max: I remember when that CAT 5 first came out. The rule change can really catapult a company. Tell us about the Limited Edition CAT 7, what inspired that Limited Edition CAT 7? The original is doing so great, why the limited edition?
Ryder: I love doing cool looking cosmetics on bats. I studied the market and what guys like. I like doing really good looking design. We want it clean looking. One of the big things is that we were one of the first for the bats to go a two year cycle. Coming out with a new model every single season is impossible. We think consumers know that old bats are the same as new bats. So, we wanted out distribution channel to do better. The CAT 6 had better sales in year 2 than it did in year one. But, knowing how good a bat is takes a year. So, with the CAT 7, we thought there was some value in doing a little refresher. We wanted something new in the CAT 7 and the regionals for the CWS. So, it was fun to give them something new. That limited edition is to help build some design. We want to bring some influence in the market and bring stuff that no one else can have.
Max: Explain the CAT 7. Is it just right?
Ryder: High performance without cutting corners. One piece aluminum bat space. Our aluminum has 7 variable walls with a ring free design. No governors, no internal parts inside the walls. And it is easier to produce. So, we like not cutting corners without any rings. We also developed a new aluminum. Very high tinsel strength and create thinner walls and widen the swing spots. The key is how wide of a .50 BBCOR space it is. That is the key. How far can you get it to the taper and towards the barrel. The CAT 7 has 7 variable walls. It is not easy to produce. Very precise and very good performance. The other major thing is the Anti-Vibration knob in the handle. The idea is from the archery industry that use a rubber harmonic dampener to make it a smoother feel. The AV2 is the second generation of the CAT 7. As a single piece bat, it helps it smoother. It also lower’s the swing weight too as it sits below the hands. That is why it is the best.
Brian: I had this great idea for a baseball bat is to lower the swing weight by adding weight below the hands. What is the back story on the AV2 knob? Does Marucci have that?
Ryder: Yes. Alvin bats. They had it. And Marucci ultimately bought that design and now we own that ability. It has been in the works for 8 years.
Brian: Fun to hear you talk about variable wall thickness. Does the 7 in the CAT 7 come from the 7 variable wall thicknesses?
Ryder: We did not do that until this year. But, it worked out. It was going to be the CAT 6, CAT 5, CAT X.
Brian: I like the name. Keep it. CAT 8, CAT 9. Aluminum single piece. CAT 7 is the best seller. Right?
Ryder: Yes. It is our flagship line.
Brian: If you look through the JBR site, you guys have released some beautiful bats. Like the Marucci OPS bat.
Ryder: We took that same structure and put it on a CAMO bat line. We found an affiliation between baseball players and hunters. It is fun to be a small little company.
Brian: Marucci Hex, massively barreled single piece composite. Then a Marucci Connect. How is that different?
Ryder: Composite bats have larger barrels. So, we need something different. In the 1.15 design it is much more difficult to get to the 1.15 with aluminum along the length of the barrel. Lots of players like composite. One piece is hard to get away from the vibrational feedback. Now, we have a two piece composite design. We have a shock absorbing connection. It is a threaded connection. It is not just glued together. It is literally threaded and screwed into place. It is a stiffer connection without the sting. It has made a lot of sense. We learned a lot from the Composite Hex. And now we have it in a lot of different sizes. Drop 8, drop 5, drop 10. Our composite arsenal has grown. We have great feedback.
Ryder: I think the Connect is more of a feel niche. It has more mass in the head. But those that want a head heavy feel bat then the CAT 7 connect simply weighs more. And it requires more power to hit. So it is a smaller niche. We will have that in a minus 5 design.
Max: What schools swing Marucci?
Ryder: We do not pay any school to use our products. Other schools are paid quite a bit by other companies. We don’t do that. But there are some like Bethany, Missouri Western, to just name a few. And we have some softball teams that are swinging stuff too. But we don’t pay.
Max: Marucci Pure Bat, What are your thoughts?
Ryder: It honestly it has done really well for us. We did not have a ton of inventory last year to make a big splash, but that is changing this year. We have a few major colleges using it. It is a lot of feedback. We are there now. You will see a serious push in fast pitch in the next few years. Very excited about it.
Brian: Does that bat change colors? We made a post about the worst bats ever. And there was old one that changed colors. What is the Marucci plan in a USAbat?
Ryder: Marucci is not getting into the USAbat standard. We are not interested in making a poor performing bat. Kids don’t quit baseball because they can hit, they quit because they can’t. Good luck to those that play in the space. We are trying to grow the game of baseball and we create high performing baseball products and we are not interested in being in that niche.
Max: You’d rather win fastpitch.
Brian: Three cheers for Marucci on that one.
Ryder: We don’t have to hit any particular number, we are privately held, we don’t have to play the games we don’t think make sense.
Brian: What is coming up?
Ryder: CAT 7 will still be around and the CAT 7 connect and Hex Connect. Some bats are on their second year. We have a lot of good things coming up this year. And regionals and quarter finals we have good stuff.
Brian: Two year Cycle, I would lead with this. Other models are made 12 months ago. They can’t be real upgrades. It takes too long to make a bat.
Ryder: Exactly right. You have to be 12 to 18 months ahead of the market. So there is no way to produce a bat that fast. So a 2 year cycle makes way more sense. It is how many really good golf clubs do it too. It has to feel the full length of an entire season. Just because it is a new model does not mean it is a new bat. We really like our 2 year cycle.
Brian: Bats can be different, but it is impossible to them be upgrades from a bat released 12 months ago.
Ryder: Titlist is a 2 year cycle. There is a reason for that.
Max: Where is Marucci going?
Ryder: I am in it right now for new bats and for the next series of bat lines. It is never ending. Always looking at new stuff.
Max: What is the final word, why does someone buy Maruccu?
Ryder: Marucci is from the ground up we are baseball player owned company. We are in the game. We are getting feedback. We own the majority of MLB wood bat usage. Marucci grows so fast over the last couple years and we will keep growing. You are picking up a quality product that is high tuned for quality performance.
Ryder: Join us next week at the same bat time and the same bat channel.
Published: May 10, 2017 | Last modified: December 20, 2017
On the 8th episode of the BatCast we spend some quality time with Jennie Ritter. Jennie runs the grassroots section of DeMarini and Slugger fastpitch bats. With the recent release of the DeMarini CFX, and a number of other exciting insights into fastpitch bats, the following is our Slugger and DeMarini fastpitch Podcast Transcript.
Note: These are not our exact words but a very rough transcript
Brian: How have the last 4 to 6 weeks gone for you?
Max: Its been a grind, but we are seeing at the light of the end of the tunnel. We need some rest. But it has been awesome.
Brian: What do you see on the fastpitch side in terms of things players are looking for. You see a lot of folks live, because you guys have a real story. What do fastpitch players ask you the most questions about.
Max: Fastpitch is a huge market. It runs from 7 year olds to girls over 20. They love the new bats, they love the style to it. The biggest brands are Slugger and DeMarini. Easton might be #3. But, for us, we see a ton of new DeMarini and Slugger poeple that love the new Demarini bats. They just released the CFX bat. Crazy to think we have come this far.
Brian: Sounds like baseball. Looking for the new look, good balance, lots of pop.
Max: You have fastpitch players?
Brian: Yes. I have a couple daughters that play. They use the LXT.
Max: When a boy comes in and asks for a new bat the parents are more likely to buy a new bat for daughters instead of sons. We can see the parents spend more money on the girls.
Brian: Yeah. My 8 and 9 year old daughters play in an all boy pitching machine league. And they use the LXT from Slugger. It is a fun sport to watch. Fastpitch rarely gets as much publicity as it deserves. You can find it on ESPN every so often. I have a treat for you, today we have Jennie Ritter. Usually we have some bat science guy. But, today, we have Jennie Ritter who is the grass roots manager for fastpitch for Wilson. She is a previous National Champion. If you are okay with it, let us get her on the line.
Max: That’s awesome. Let us do it!
Brian: Jennie: thanks for joining us!
Jennie: Looking forward to it.
Brian: Talk through how you ended up doing what you are doing with DeMarini and Slugger.
Jennie: I played at University of Michigan in 2003 to 2006 and we won the 2005 national Championship. I played professionally and on team USA as well as a year in Japan. Then I retired. Slugger called me. I said yes. Was there for a 1.5 years before they were acquired by Wilson. Now I deal with evosheidl and ATEC as well as DeMarini. I am in the grassroots manager. We deal with all levels of the game at every level of association. My input on technology and getting the right piece in the market is what I do.
Max: 2005 Season, how special was that for you?
Jennie: We held the #1 ranking throughout the year yet no one thought we could win it all. But we just had outstanding hitters. From top to bottom it was really a team effort with some amazing team chemistry. The bottom of the lineup showed up when we needed it. That idea of a team has helped me for a long time especially considering what I do now on the DeMarini team.
Max: What year did you start at Slugger.
Jennie: Fall of 2014.
Max: Newer to the DeMarini line then?
Jennie: Yes. But I know them well because we competed against them for such a long time.
Brian: My #1 Question — How do you deal with the fact that you now control two fantastic bat lines in the fastpitch space. How do you help them differentiate between the CF DeMarini line and/or the Slugger Xeno/LXT? How do you convince them?
Jennie: First thing to mention is the R&D teams are separate. As such, there is quite a bit of difference between each individual bat. The benefit is that we hit each bat in the market a lot to get the right feedback. But each bat each has a different feel and different sweet spot. Our job is to come out with the best performing bat that satisfies the needs of the players. And we keep innovating.
Max: You guys are both 1 and 2 in the market right now. It is crazy to see. I am baised towards Easton, but every girl that I have spoken to in the last year is either Slugger or DeMarini.
Jennie: Every day we come to work to figure out how we can make it better.
Brian: Let’s just go the slugger line: talk us through the difference between the XENO and the LXT. How would you describe the two bats?
Jennie: The LXT has a new stiffer joint this year and gives you a better feel. The Xeno will have the same technology but give some maximum flex with the two disc technology. The Xeno has a pretty large sweet spot. It is going to feel like a home run every time you hit it. So a player who likes a nice feel then the Xeno. The LXT uses a TRU3 connection piece, so that is different. In the LXT we have removed of the discs so it can have a larger sweet spot. This might mean it takes a bit more of a work in. And the TRU3 has a little more of a joint so a it has less stiffness than the XENO. But it will not feel like a home run every time like the XENO. There is more feedback in the LXT than the XENO.
Another difference is we took some weight out of the end cap in the LXT. It just gives it a lighter swing. Feedback from the new 2018 LXT has been outstanding. It is a great bat.
Max: A question we get a lot: People would hit with the XENO and people thought it was breaking. Or, that it was broken. The sound was real harsh. We looked into why it was. What is your take as to why they sound so different.
Jennie. It is because of the metal discs. It is the sides of composite walls engaging the composite discs. So, as the bat flexes then it smashes up against the discs and gives that sound. You are hearing the metal discs hitting the side of the composite wall. This makes the bat hot out of the wrapper—especially at slower bat speeds. It is how we can create some maximum exit velocity on a swing that is not necessarily the fastest.
Max: What is TRU3?
Jennie: It is the new LXT and will be in the new PXT, that we have yet to talk about. It reduces the vibration. it allows you make quicker adjustments at bat. A lot of players choose that so they can feel the differences.
Brian: The discs on the newer versions this year?
Jennie: One disc inside the LXT. Two discs inside of the XENO.
Brian: I hope the people listening caught on. We hear people all the time say that standards have made the bats perform the same. But all those tests are done at certain pitch speeds. So, the ability to use an LXT or XENO and give it good pop at a low bat speed is the world of difference. It is what drives technology and what drives price. And it is why people should feel comfortable spending more money because it gives you better velocity at better pitch speeds. I just wanted to reiterate that because I think people miss that.
Brian: We have the LXT and the we have the XENO. And now we have a bat a new 2018 bat that is a PXT. What is that?
Jennie: PXT has the LXT TRU3 connection, but it has NO discs in the barrel. It gives the bat an amazing feel. The feedback we hear is that people are getting from the LXT. It is an exciting bat. More pop and a larger sweet spot. This is the bat that is most exciting to us. It is pretty amazing what we can get out of that bat and the pop is outstanding.
Max: I’ve seen that bat. So far so good. It is not going to sound the same right?
Jennie: Correct. Not the same as a CF9, but not the same as the crack that the XENO and the LXT.
Brian: If you are taking notes at home: we have the PXT, the LXT and the Xeno from Slugger. Now you will see the breadth of Jennie’s job because we have yet to even speak of the CFX from DeMarini. So putting Slugger on the shelf for a second, talk us through the CFX and how it compares to the CF9.
Jennie: This is a good example of changing in the barrel technology. The CFX there is an improvement on the D-Fusion handle. It gives for greater weight control and redirects energy back into the barrel. That is the most exciting thing that DeMarini has come out with. The barrels are big and people like the big barrel with some good flex. So the CFX improves that feeling. The composite technology is 22% stronger so we can distribute the weight better. And the CFX will be the lightest swinging bats in the market.
Max: The CF9 drop 10 and drop 11 and the new CFX are always the lightest swinging bat. What about the CF Insane bat. How much end load is that?
Jennie: It is the only true end loaded bat on the market. Some of the bats, like the XENO, has a drop 8 or drop 9, but the Insane is the only fastpitch bat where the balance point is built towards the end cap. It is for elite power hitters and a real endloaded feel. Used for an elite hitter and serious swing.
Max: So, for college players/
Jennie: It really is a preference. If you can get quick hands with an endload you will see a result that is still very good. A lot of players like a balanced feel. Endloaded is a specific preference but those that swing it love it.
Brian: I get a lot of questions a day on social media. That sound about like this: “Hey JBR, my daughter is 11 years old. What fast-pitch bat should she get?” We all laugh of course. As if the age is the perfect answer. What would be the questions you would like to find out from them first before you go off and start making recommendations?
Jennie: My first thought would be the size of the girl. A lot of variety of sizes and a lot of bats that work. Sizes matters. Then I would want to know, preference they like in terms of feel. Do they need to feel like there is more pop and need confidence then may be we push them into a XENO. If they want more feedback then we have other options. If they are a slapper then we look at the CF Slapper. And some could use the end load even if they are not in college. The feel is the next most important question. All the bats are going to perform well. Those are the questions I would ask—and of course sizes with a couple different lengths and weights. Feel and comfort and confidence with the tool in your hands. Then, of course, you need to demo the bat. If some think they are certain fans of a XENO but then once they hit it they change their mind to the LXT. If you are listening I would say go out and demo. Don’t choose on color. Color should be the last thing. Think about what you need in a bat to perform the best. Because that is what matters. We will provide the best tech but you need to hit the balls. We want to a company your success and not be the reason for your success.
Brian: I heard the HOPE bat might be out? As well, tell us about the Slapper bat?
Jennie: Yes. The hope is gone. The balanced CFX will come in a drop 11, 10, 9 and 8. The Slapper is a bat you can use to hit with too. The weight of the barrel in the Slapper is in the hands. And the barrel is an inch longer. For slappers it is designed for a longer bat and more control to put the ball in play. But, the Slapper can be used for more than just slapping. Some power hitters use the Slapper. It uses the same composite. Although it is designed for a slapper it still performs at peak powers. You can swing away with the CFX Slapper.
Max: What bat would you choose?
Jennie: I am fan of all of them and each hit the market in their own ways. Something I would prefer might not be something that someone else prefers. And although the bats are different they just fill different parts in the world. I am a big fan of technology. So, I will buy into the latest and greatest technology. Others like the idea of the feel. I am going to go with the best technology. R&D spends hours of testing and I like that idea and put a lot of value on that. The most innovative technology.
Max: Brian, what would you take?
Brian: I’d take the Slapper, all day. People were slobbery over the Combat MAXUM. For all the same reason people loved that bat the idea of a huge barrel and a light swing the Slapper bat is perfect. Don’t hit it at home with baseballs. The slapper can drop bombs. How about you Max?
Max: I’d use the XENO. Boring answer, but it is fantastic. 10 years of the XENO and it is newer and improved with the end cap. Pretty fantastic. I look for the PXT to be the underdog this year although it is the most expensive.
Brian: Jennie, 2005, 2 outs, runner on 3rd. You are up. What do you choose. I am forcing you into a question you don’t want to answer.
Jennie: First of all, if we are in that situation we are in big trouble. But, I would lean on technology. I would grab something that gives me the max. All the bats are outstanding. I’d look for something with serious pop and I’d choose an Slugger bat or a Demarini bat.
Brian: I can’t imagine what it is like to be the Wilson rep selling fastpitch. Because, they own the entire space. Despite the fact that you guys own the market, what is the Wilson story or the Fastpitch final sales pitch.
Jennie: Every bat is different. Demoing the bat is a big deal. You are going to get better results but to demo the bat. One interesting thing about our company is that we have become a one stop shop. There is not a hitter in the world that will not find the right fit with a Wilson brand of bats (Slugger and DeMarini). Custom things are awesome and we have some very great stuff across the board for apparel and protection too. You simply do not have to go anywhere else. We are confident in our products that they give everyone an option. We are confident in all of our products.
Max: When our rep comes in we have girls come in and hit too. There is a lot of value in just seeing the bats. And getting real feedback from real hitters. Thanks Jennie.
Brian: At the end of the podcast….
Jennie: Tune in next week to the same bat time on the same bat channel.
Brian: Welcome to the Batcast, Episode #7. Let’s get Mad Max On the phone.
Max: Let’s get into it.
Brian: 5 years ago we wouldn’t necessarily have done one on Rawlings in the bat space, right?
Max: Probably not. 5 years ago Rawlings really wasn’t in the bats. People thought of them as a glove company.
Brian: Yes. Baseballs and Glove. They still make both. Reading a statistic yesterday, they own something like 52% of MLB Baseball players gloves. And of course they are using all of MLB baseballs. But up until a few years ago they didn’t even make bats. When we get Kyle on the phone in a minute we can talk more about this. But years ago Rawlings bought Adirondack. And were a big player for a long time in the wood bat space. But for years they were never in the aluminum bat. They make the VELO now, which is a very popular bat. This was the first single piece aluminum bat. It is an extended composite end cap. Lights swinging aluminum bats are a must. It is a bat that you hear before you see. It is so loud.
Max: Then they have the 5150. That bat was much like the VELO until a couple years ago. It was like the VELO, but now it is more of a pure aluminum bat.
Brian: And the third bat is they have the Quatro. This bat has 4 pieces. And we can talk more with Kyle about that bat. It’s the new bright yellow bat. Do you guys see a lot of people buy it? Its really, well, yellow.
Max: Anyone who has hit with it really like it. But we think it is so loud that a lot of older players think its too much. But younger players like it. When folks hit with it they love it. I think Rawlings nailed it on those three bats. With the new USA bat standard, Rawlings can really add to some success to their bat line as it might benefit them more than anything.
Brian: It will really reset the playing field, at least in youth bats. Will be interesting to see what RAwlings does in terms of their USA bats standard. It is going to be such a wild ride come September of this year. Did you guys ever sell the 2 Legit from Worth last year?
Max: We did. That bat now became the Quatro as this 4-piece bat. So, yeah, we saw it sell alot.
Brian: When we first heard about the Quatro we saw it on eBay. Some college kid trying to get a few bucks out of it after he used it from Rawlings. I ended up writing Rawlings an Email wondering how in the world we can get that bat. They, of course, said that bat is under wraps. I guess my point is that they have been working on the Quatro for a very, very long time. It was a fun to see that so early in the build up. That was my first introduction to the Quatro.
Max: That bat will definitley get your attention.
Brian: Out of those three bats: VELO, 5150, Quatro. What does Mad Max take the plate?
Max: I go with the VELO. It is the standard for the last three years. It is short for Velocity. I just feels very smooth and I think that endcap is part of their success. Looking back no one talked about the end cap. Easton would put on it was never thought of. Now they realize the end cap matters and Rawlings was really the original bat that went there and I’ve got to give it to the VELO.
Brian: I remember when Demarini came out with a DeMarini and it was shaped like a D. And I read a bullet point that said something like it was aerodynamic. That somehow the shape of the endcap made it fly smoother through the air. You’ve got to be kidding me that this is really why they put the end cap. It looks cool. But, come on. It has nothing to do aerodynamics. I’ll name the folks who copied it: The Boombah Cannon; The 617 SOLO; The Axe Hyperwhip. But all these have taken what the VELO made famous and proved to work and, frankly, copied it. Where the variable wall thickness is found now on a lot of bats. Rawlings was the winner in that space and I think they are being rewarded in that by a lot people buying the VELO.
Max: It came on the scene when South Carolina won the national championship using their bats 7 years ago. It is amazing.
Brian: It has been fun to see them take over the space from basically not being involved in the bat space at all. But, behold, here they are. They are likely, what, the 3rd or 4th in the market.
Max: Yep. The big three are probably Easton, DeMarini and Slugger. But Rawlings is right there. Rawlings makes a great pitch to players. But Rawlings have the most impressive bats on the market this year. They are remarkably similar.
Brian: Let’s get the expert on the phone.
Kyle: Weather crazy. St. Louis awesome. Looking forward to baseball to start. Hey Max.
Max: I got my Rawlings sweatshirt on.
Brian: Tell us what you do at Rawlings. How fun it is and what is the best part of your job.
Kyle: I grew up playing baseball. Played at University of Kansas. Have a good natural fit at Rawlings. Spent just about the entire last 7 years working form the R&D to the bats from conception to launching it. It’s been a great opportunity. It has been fun to stay close to the game. Now I’m at the director level dealing with bats and batting gloves.
Brian: In 7 years, what have you seen change in the metal and composite bat space for Rawlings. Are we accurate to say that 7 years ago Rawlings didn’t even make metal and composite bat space? How has been the transition from a glove and baseball story to now a dead serious player in the metal and composite bat space.
Kyle: 7 Years ago we had some aluminum and composite offering but we might as well not have had one. When I was a kid if you were using a Rawlings bat you were not a serious baseball player—outside of wood. Taking calls from major colleges about our bats started from there and the BBCOR bat standard change really put us on the map. My first ABCA show I showed up to talk bats and I don’t think there was a single person that stopped by to talk about bat. Now, at the bat show, everyone wants to talk about bats. It is fun to see people care about bats. We obviously still care about gloves and balls.
Max: I think Rawlings may benefit most from the USA Bat standard. Explain the difference between the 5150 and the VELO? What is the difference between those two bats.
Kyle: The VELO is all about pitch speeds and having the fastest bat speed. The easiest way for us to do that is to make a very light swinging bat. We have seen the highest level of player using the VELO to maximize bat speed by taking out weight in the end cap by removing ounces out of the end of the bat. That makes for a faster swing weight. Our engineers have also honed in on the thickness of the middle of the barrel and optimize the thickness to make the barrel durable, meet performance standards and be long. It is our POP 2.0 technology. We added a laser groove to take even more weight out of the barrel. The 5150 is a bit of a blend but it is going to be more balanced instead of a lighter swing weight like the VELO. But it is the same idea but just a little more balanced.
Max: 7 Years ago, when did SC win the national championship. Then in 2011 they repeated. That had to have helped when they won, is that when it all broke out?
Kyle: It definitely helped. The phone calls we started to field were phenominal and it legitimizes you. We are starting to see that same go in our fastpitch line. To have the University of Oklahoma win for the first time using Rawlings fastpitch for the very first time brings a lot of credibility to your brand that would not happen if they didn’t win.
Brian: That POP 2.0 tech. We saw that laser groove on the VELO. It might be hard to imagine. But, imagining cutting a barrel in half. Then holding it an angle to see how thick the walls are. The walls have different thicknesses. That wall changes in thickness and helps you get a lighter swing. The next step of that at one part of that barrel there is even a deeper groove which removes more metal towards the end cap in terms of swing weight and that is the disadvantage an aluminum bat. It is the more material I put in the end cap the harder it gets to swing. The further away we can take more weight out the lighter it gets. So, not only is the thinner wall in addition to a composite end cap but the Laser groove takes even more out to make it an even lighter swinging bat. That is the 2017 bat. How did I do on that Kyle?
Kyle: That is great. You could work for us. With the original 5150 that wall was a 2 1/2 inch thick wall section that tapers down to a much thinner wall. From that original thick wall to what we have now is a dramatic shift. It is surprising to think we can make a bat any better year over year but we really can. And it really is an improvement year over year. Our engineers have been amazing in verifying that it is going to pass the test. It is pretty incredible.
Brian: As a guy who blogs about bat I find a lot of satisfaction in being able to categorize bats in a certain area. So, for example, the VELO has this and I can write a review about it. But, with the VELO, every one of those things are true except for what it isn’t. Let me explain. My son, who has every bat ever, my son swings a VELO—now just turned 10 year old son. However, that VELO is not an aluminum bat. It is called the VELO composite. Why the confusion?
Kyle: Yes. With a minus 12 in a composite bat we thought it fell into the VELO, velocity, family better than any others. But, in the end, it does make it confusing. But we didn’t have a full line of composites and VELO seemed to be the best fit.
Brian: Fair enough. And I liked the idea of a VELO as a fast swinging bat. That is fair enough.
Max: What happened to the TRIO?
Kyle: Two ways to see it. Compsites own the $399 price point. And the TRIO was an aluminum barrel. And up until the Quatro we felt like we just could not get there. We wanted a bat that could perform out of the wrapper at the limit. We still get calls that folks still want it. But we finally got to the time where we could benefit from a composite and that our composite had an advantage over other composites. But we think our price point didn’t work for most and I wouldn’t be surprised if someday you see a comeback of that bat—although not in the near future.
Max: We found that for $300 folks who wanted aluminum, were more likely to get a VELO if they were going aluminum. And the Quatro has done well. Should we expect an expansion of that?
Kyle: The Quatro will stay a lot like it was but we can make some enahancements that allow us to improve the overall balance of the quatro. You’ll see that. The focus for us really has been on USA baseball. You will see an Quatro USA Bat in the assortment. It will be pretty straight forward and you will see the line expanding and we will put more behind it. To come, more to come, but certainly we see the success of it and we want to put our eggs in that basket.
Brian: You mentioned that inner barrel. If you saw the Quatro, if you were to cut it in half, it doesn’t have any variable wall thickness because it is composite. But if you look inside there, it looks like there is another bat inside the bat. It is crazy if you have never seen it. Talk us through why that is there and what’s the point of that inner barrel.
Kyle: Our idea is that wanted to do something very unique that our engineers can work through. If you were to cut that bat in half, just like any other bat on the market, you would see a hollow inner barrel. The difference with our bat is that our outer barrel is very flexible. With that there is more trampoline you’ll be able to maximize performance but we still need to pass the test. So, we have put an inner barrel that acts almost as a governor so if the outer barrel flexes far enough then the inner barrel will keep the bat from flexing too much. The key benefit is that off middle barrel speeds you’ll see good pop as well as if you see a bat that works at slow pitch speed.
Brian: Here is my big take away. I hope the people at home have this aha moment. The sentiment I seem to always get is that it is the Indian not the arrow. It is there justification from most dads about ready to pull the trigger. Because people are always looking for a way to spend less money. But I hope people see a certain pitch speed make a difference. But, if a guy is throwing 92 and I’m swinging 87. Then, maybe, it is all the same. But what happens when I swing a bat 67 and see a pitch at 72 because I am a Jr. in highschool. The grand key is that bats work at different pitch speeds. And if parents could get that then I think they’d see why it might make sense to spend more money. Not saying it is always the case.
Kyle: Nail on the head. It also includes a sentiment of the feel of bats. We field those types of questions all the time. But, in terms of USA baseball, with the performance going backwards why would I pay more money for a bat that is moving backwards in the standard. But, still, the idea is that a much better performing bat simply costs more money because those are things that you pay for.
Brian: JBR does not imply to spend all the money you need. It just depends. You are playing 12 games in a rec league then who cares what bat you have. Bats do matter and the better the player gets, the more a bat matters. Not to get all preachy. If I am at home thinking my 13 year old son who doesn’t swing very fast might value from a bat that works on slower pitch speeds and off center barrel hits. With all that said, and no great transition, tell us about USA bats.
Kyle: The first date you can get one is September 1st, 2017. We are several months out. There are some others that are coming through with USA bats and they all looked at consolidating the rules and each association was doing there own thing so trying to bring together there own rules. Although USSSA will be on the other side. Performance going back wards is up for debate. Some see it as a good thing others see it as a risk to participation. In the end it is what is happening. We are mapping out what our designs are going to look like. USA came to us 5 to 7 years ago. Everyone pushed off. But now, September 1st, 2017 is when things come out. Janauray 1st is when those old bats are no longer valid. We look at it as a great opportunity for us and taking BBCOR as a mapping we are looking forward to seeing how this will change the entire playing field.
Max: I think Rawlings has the most to gain here. September 1st will be here soon.
Kyle: We should be ramping up with all the major accounts by that time and it should be ready for the holidays.
Max: What is the background with that famous Rawlings PING? I hear that bat in my sleep. How important is the color.
Kyle: Watching the series on Omaha was all about the PING. It was famous from that and we wanted to bring that back. We thought that was a feature that resonates with the game. And people associate a louder sound at contact with performance. No doubt you hear a VELO from three fields away. If you want to stand out on the field we thought the color on the Quatro would be a good choice. It makes a lot of sense.
Brian: What else is coming down the pipe from Rawlings?
Kyle: We have a lot of momentum and we’ve done well in BBCOR. But we we have seen with the standard change and working on the category of Youth bats is a huge niche of ours that we are focused on. We have a ton of bat trials and demo’s going on. That should be a big deal for us. From the youth category to fastpitch is very important to us. You’ll see those lines expand. We want to a place with that particular player. And, we should mention our wood bats. We continue to see our wood bats grow year over year in the MLB space. So, we decided to focus on our core products. We have to win and wood bats is what won the most from that decision. Machado is using our bat, Bryce Harper is using our bats. We have a lot of top level players now using our bats and many rising minor league players using our bats.
Published: February 28, 2017 | Last modified: December 20, 2017
Our Mizuno Batcast dove deep into BBCOR and BPF testing with a former employee of the Sports Science Lab of WSU, Brendan Kays. After testing bats during his graduate work, Brendan Kays was hired by Mizuno. We discuss his travels and insights into bat testing and how he has converted that knowledge into a very competitive series of bats produced by Mizuno in the USA market. Links to the podcast are found here. Below is the paraphrased transcript.
Brian: Last week it was 60, today there is 8 inches of snow on the ground. Welcome to the Rocky Mountains.
Brian: Today’s topic is Mizuno. 4 years ago these folks were not in the bat business. That is, not the metal or composite bat business, they made bats for Peter Rose and Ichiro Suzuki. But not metal bats. Do you see people asking for thier Mizuno bats?
Max: Not really. We really see folks asking for their gloves, but no so much their bats.
Brian: It is strange to see them jump into a very difficult space. In a market where there is consolidation it is interesting to see Mizuno put so many resources into bats. Maybe there is room to get better?
Max: I would compare Rawlings and Mizuno very similarly. Not too many years ago Rawlings had no effort into bats. But, now, Rawlings makes legitimate bats that are used a high levels in the space. I think Mizuno is using that model to drive business to the metal bat business. Will be interesting to see if Mizuno becomes that group that sepertes themselves from the pack.
Brian: Brendan is a really interesting guy to know. He is the product testing engineer at Mizuno. He brings some insight that no one else on this podcast has really done. Nothing I’ve ever seen. Brendan actually worked at WSU who worked at the lab that got all the BPF and BBCOR testing done. Mizuno went out and hired this guy.
Max: He knows where these bats need to be.
Brian. For sure. I think Mizuno has built a lab just like the testing folks. Should we get him on the line?
Max: Let us do it.
Brian: Hey Brendan, Tell us about your background. Not just with Mizuno, but before that as well.
Brendan: At Mizuno I am an R&D engineer. That includes bats and protective gear. Mizuno hired me becuase of my connection with bat testing before. I was a research assistant for bat testing at WSU. That is my background. I was hired as a test eingineer and now it has morphed into part of a design role.
Brian: You came from WSU. Is only the testing done there? BPF, BBCOR, USSSA?
Brendan: No. All the USSSA testing is done by Richard Brandt in New York. But the USA baseball standard and ASA and BBCOR are done at WSU. I was working in the test lab testing bats.
Brian: You gotta walk us through what that involves. We’ve seen video, we think. Maybe, walk us through how that works? What is the process like to do the testing during BBCOR? Can I send a bat in?
Brendan: You need to have an agreement with an association to send in a bat. After that you contact WSU and their sports science lab. Send in bats, pay the fee. The bat testing in my eyes is pretty simple. You clamp the bat in. The bat is sits still and the bat can rotate. You fire a ball at a really high speed and then measure the rebound speed off of that. The idea is that an incoming pitch speed and bat speed makes the same collision. For BBCOR they are using around 140mph.
Brian: What are they looking for in a rebound speed. 140mph on the rebound.
Brendan: Dead center on the barrel it is 136mph. And it depends on where we are in the barrel because the speed changes. And the exit speed is much lower than that. Something like 40mph. But once you know the rebound speed and other things, like MOI, then you can calculate the bat ball coefficient of restitution.
Max: Is there a limited amount of time the approval is good for.
Brendan: The NCAA or USSSA can buy bats whenever they want and test them. They also do random testing at places like the College World series. They are pulling bats and sending them into the lab trying to make sure they are going to meet the standard.
Brian: Is there any break in period for the tests? Does the ABI testing (accelerated break in) change things? How does that work.
Brendan: ABI was a big deal when it came out. Now, since bats were getting hotter, Initial break in process by rolling it and getting a certain stiffness change. The softer a barrel the better performance to a certain point. They break it in and then test it. It has to pass. This makes it difficult for bat manufacturers because they need to design for a broken bat or a bat that lowers BBCOR. Not one that gets hotter.
Brian: Not to jump ahead, but I will. How does this work with the MAXCOR BBCOR bat that has a soft barrel to begin with?
Brendan: I was at the lab when the MAXCOR bat came into the lab. It blew my mind. This soft barrel idea. Mizuno had to take that bat to the NCAA and explain the details, break in and materials to do an ABI process to show it would not get hotter. The MAXCOR is actually an aluminum because it does not break in. You can therefore start the bat at the top of the scale and you don’t have to worry about the ABI testing process when you are getting it to the limit.
Brian: It obviously worked.
Brendan: After Mizuno did all the testing the NCAA gave the approval. They don’t have material bans they just have standards and ABI testing limit bans.
Brian: I have a lot of questions about the MAXCOR. But before I jump into it, Mizuno did not make aluminum and composite bats in the US. Now we’ve seen a lot of compromise in the market and consolidation in the market. Why did Mizuno see a reason to actually get in a market that feels like it is constricting. When I think of Mizuno I think of a Japanese company. How does it work being a USA arm for a Mizuno company?
Brendan: Mizuno USA is a sales and distribution center. R&D wise, we have an entire socket designer group that produces out of Mizuno corporation of Japan. We are still a support role for Mizuno USA. Somewhat of satellite campus in the US to deal with regulations in the US. The market is so different that they need that group in the US to bridge the gap. We were the first to produce a high performing composite bat. Mizuno has had fastpitch and softball bats for a long time. We were founded in 1907 and all this knowledge on bats from the beginning. Huge market that is twice as big as softball. We should bring that information to the metal and composite baseball space.
Max: What makes Mizuno different then an Easton or DeMarini?
Brendan: No bat can go higher than a .50 BBCOR. We think we have the advantage that our bat gets a .50 BBCOR measurement across a longer length of the barrel. We are really talking about a sweet spot length. Our big advantage is that length of the sweet spot.
Brian: Let’s say Brendan is up to bats. What bat does he take if his intent is to hit the ball the hardest. Among the MAXCOR, Generations and Covert. Knowing that you have data. What bat do you grab and why?
Brendan: I can see all of the data. I can see how every bat performs. We should make decisions based on that. From what I know I would use MaxCor. A couple reasons. One: we have Cortech. It is a variable wall thickness. Two, the MaxCor has a this rubber sleeve. I know that the faster the pitch speed the better our bat will perform. The MaxCor just performs so differently than a BP sleeve. This means it has some rate dependence. The MaxCor has some rate dependence that makes it performance.
Brian: Increases in Rate performance. Is that the speed of the impact??
Brian: Is the two-dimensional speed spot the reason for the rate dependence? More smashing makes for a wider sweet spot at impact.
Brendan: Yes. The liquid material is more effected by the higher the exit speed.
Brian: You have a lab there at Mizuno, right? Did you create it there?
Brendan: Yes. We basically replicated the certification lab here at Mizuno.
Brian: You can go wherever you want and buy whatever bat you want. So, since you have tested every bat cant’ you tell that every bat is at max performance. Because every bat manufacturer claims this is true. If BBCOR does in fact constrict our ability to produce trampoline effect, is it fair to say, sure all you folks figured it out. But there really is no difference between one brand to another. Therefore do I buy the Covert or do I buy the VELO? Is the real honest answer that it just doesn’t matter because it is the same standard.
Brendan: I will say, at one point on the bat pretty much everyone is at the limit. There are some exceptions to that. How difficult it is for Composite bats to reach ABI levels on composites. But if you are talking aluminum bats coming out of the wrapper the bat is really close to .500 BBCOR. The big differences are where is that on the bat? Some manufacturers put a ring on the bat that moves the sweet spot. This does not make sense if you want to reach max performance. It moves the sweet spot. Mizuno has the advantage we are up and down that barrel. Off center hits still reach .50 on the bat speed.
Max: Has the ring moved around over the years?
Brendan: We have ring free technology so the way we design our bats there is not a ring. Other companies do and they have become more clever as to where to put that. The idea is to stifen the barrel and it will shift the swing bats.
Max: Did Mizuno ever put in a ring?
Brendan: No we never have.
Brian: Cortech is the tapered barrel, right
Brian: We want you to talk about it, but I still want to keep you on the hook here. If MaxCor is the most amazing bat in the world, why is not a drop 8. Where is that bat? If it is the best then let me buy it!
Brendan: Well, we are working on it. Stay tuned. The MaxCor technology is two layer bat. That increases swing weight and makes it hard to make a really low drop weight. You’ve increased the amount of material. For a BBCOR bat it makes speed since more material makes more sense. Hopefully in a few months we have somethings to report on that.
Brian: I have one more question on the soft barrel bat. When it first came out, but there was the idea that backspin on a hit ball can make it fly further. But too much back spin isn’t particularly the best thing. But backspin does matter. One of MaxCor’s original claims was that the backspin was optimal. But how do we verify that backspin increases is a real thing and that it is optimal and not just making it worse?
Brendan: Japan has a lot of great data. They have a swing robot. We have seen that data and seen increases in backspin. There are a lot of assumptions going into a hit that need to go right to make back spin optimal. Dead center hits there are no back spin so it will not work. But at launch angles of 20 to 35 degrees you see on average about 1000 RPM increase. Which may be from a 2500 rpm to 3500 rpm in MaxCor. That 1000 RPM is a significant increase. Too much spin can hurt. But 1000 RPM on a 2500 spin is helpful for total distance.
Brian: I once used a calculator by Dr. Alan Nathan that helped you estimate the distance of a ball hit. At some point the right backspin does increase it significantly. Max, you have any more questions the soft barrel?
Max: Looking forward to seeing more of the MaxCOR.
Brendan: Our hope is to see kids use it in game and really get a feel for it. We think its a great change in the industry. It is our favorite bat.
Brian: It is lighter now too. That 2015 bat was sort of an endloaded shorter barreled bat that is a little more balanced—probably still is sizing for us. There are no small sizes; no Senior Barrel sizes; no 30 inch BBCOR. But from an engineering standpoint we get it. Hard to make a light swinging bat with so much going on in the barrel. It is not more ingenious than a spinning handle. Makes more sense.
Max: Tappered inner barrels are used by Rawlings, Boombah, Axe is the tapper any difference any different? What’s the point of the taper?
Brendan: The whole point of the taper is to increase the COR outside of the sweetspot. To meet the BBCOR bat the center of the bat needs to be thick. So, the thinning of the barrel on the insides as you get away from the traditional sweet spot to be able to increase your BBCOR. Mizuno has been very aggressive on wall thicknesses. It is at the limit. There becomes some durability issues when you get to thin. It is hard to get that optimal balance to get wall thickness thing enough for a good swing weigt but still keep the trampoline effect.
Brian: Yes. Variable wall thickness in an aluminum bat is one of those things that we think: why didn’t everyone think of that? It is probably very difficult to manufacturer.
Brendan: It is. I feel like that is where we have the advantage and there are not many factories that have that ability. To be able to do this without having inconsistencies and pushing manufacturing capabilities is where we see the benefit. We have more zones in Cortech than other people.
Brian: We also talk about how aluminum gets less hot and the composite gets more hot. For example, the Covert should only be used for the game because it may lose some of its coefficient of restitution. Is that accurate.
Brendan: To a certain point. If you put thousands and thousands of hits on a bat then you start to see metal fatigue. But we have given bats a durability tests and after thousands of hits we have yet to see any depriciation in BBCOR results. We saw it more in the BESR days because the walls were so thin. But with BBCOR there is less fatigue stress. The short answer is, it would take a lot of hits to depriciate the BBCOR standard.
Brian: Okay. So now we know. It’s okay to hit your aluminum bat in BP.
Max: But make sure you buy a bat next year. Ha.
Brendan: Of course there are lot of small things that can change a bat dramatically. And we keep getting better year after year.
Max: What happened to the Nigthhawk bat?
Brendan: Last year we had a Nighthawk fastpitch bat and a nighthawk baseball bat. But the fastpitch bat was a two composite and the baseball version was a two piece hybrid. So, we rebranded the name on the new Nighthawk to Covert.
Brian: We like the Covert. Great bat. Our son uses it. Tell us about USA Bats. Does not seem like Mizuno hasn’t pushed very hard in the youth bat space. Will the USA bat standard change that? Also, any insight you might have on the USA bat standard.
Brendan: We are going after the youth market pretty hard. A new standard gives challenger brands a chance to showcase their technology. It happened with BBCOR and a few companies really rose from that. We see Mizuno making that same push from the new USA bat standards. We want to be in the youth space. Mizuno wants to win it and believe we’ll have the best performing USA bat on the market. Not sure how much we are able to share based on our contract with USA baseball but it will definitely be a decrease in performance. The real battle will be keeping the weight down. We have focused on new technologies and lightweigth materials. And that is about as much as I can say for now.
Max: We give you the floor to sell on on Mizuno. What is the coolest thing coming down the pipe.
Brendan: For me, the coolest thing I see is our new partnership with the Atlanta Braves. Here we will build and all decked out in Mizuno and you can hit in our bat simulator. All of our product is here. One thing we have better on the bat side is the BIOS (Bat Interactive Operating System) where you can get a bat fitting for the right MOI and length and type. Gives you a chance to get everything out of your swing. Our partnership with an MLB team is exciting for us. In terms of technology we think we have some of the coolest stuff coming down the pipe. New stuff that can create a the lightest swing weight, barrel size and max performance. Those are all things you should expcet form Mizuno down the road.
Brian: We are looking forward to seeing it happen. Fun to see a new player with a lot of R&D to see if they can’t dethrone some of the beheamoths.
Brendan: We are excited for everything to take off. People will start to notice how good the product really is. Should be fun. Join us next week on the Same Bat Time, the Same Bat channel.
Published: January 25, 2017 | Last modified: December 20, 2017
JustBatReviews is teaming up with closeoutbats.com to deliver a series of podcasts surrounding baseball, softball and fastpitch bats. This baseball bat podcast will be called the Batcast. As the only baseball bat podcast in the world, we feel confident claiming it is the best.
Our initial intent is to deliver a ten bat-podcast series, but even that feat will depend on the interest generated among listeners. Is there enough interest? Considering the number of people who would rather listen to instead of read information, we are hopeful. The only way to know is to do it and find out.
If all goes well, we hope to do a series of podcasts going forward for each season. If this becomes a weekly episode or simply a series of ten Batcasts every year has yet to be seen.
Although yet to be released, we have listed the intended series of ten episodes. These should begin uploading in the first half of December and carry us through February. The topics may very well change, but expect in depth conversations about our favorite subject—bats.